Southern UK Jive

[Jiveonaut]

Hi all,
I've just done a class at the Hilt, where Richard P taught a seducer. He taught the move extremely well and extremely thoroughly. He covered all the safety points, for men and ladies, gave an alternate if the ladies didn't want to do the dip bit, and all in all if anyone screwed it up its because they weren't listening.

This deserved praise does make for a dull thread, so my question is rather long, but goes like this. Richard taught the seducer so that to get into the correct, 'T' shape position the lady's right arm is led by the man over the arm and ends up around the neck: it can almost be 'thrown' there, and then the lady holds on and the dip bit begins. However, I once did a dips and drops class with Nigel and Nina, and they taught seducers with the lady's right arm going under the arm and around the guy's waist, where they hold on and the dip bit begins. Nina and especially Nigel said it was better to do it this way because it lowers the move's centre of gravity(by having the lady's arm lower - in nautical terms less topweight!), the man can lead the arm all the way to where he wants it to go, rather than throwing it, it prevents grabbing the neck and the man from being smacked round the back of the head (and so potential injury) and if the seducer goes wrong again there's no opportunity to grab at and so damage the neck, because the lady is lower, she has less distance to fall, and can slide down a much more stable man to the floor if necessary, rather than pulling the man off balance from the neck and potentially causing a back injury as well as a neck injury, and so minimises having a much bigger crash. Doing it Nigel and Nina's way, for me, gives the lead much more control, is much more leadable and if it all goes pete tong much less disastrous. However, the well trained Ceroc teacher, a la Richard, is obviously not making the teach up as he goes along, as they have the training and the Ceroc back-office machine behind them telling them to do it around the neck.

I know which way I prefer: Nigel and Nina's, for the reasons I've listed above, because I've hurt my back doing a basic first move seducer with the arm around the neck (when the lady threw herself back unexpectedly and the load went through my neck and resulted in a locked T9 and T10 vertabrae, which hurt like buggery, and three trips to the chiropracter to fix me) and also because I reckon taking the arm under and around the waist looks better as well, but who's right? One, either or both? What do people think?

Ladies, when I seduce you, you're going under.....
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[Andy McGregor]

When I teach the seducer I offer both options. I say that one of the reasons to choose "over" or "under" is relative heights. If the lead is much taller than the follow you really should go under.

Try both and see what works for you.

I think the most important thing about the seducer is to provide a solid frame by the lead lunging to the left and bending the knees to sit into to move with a straight back. If the lead twists their back in the seducer they run a risk of injury if the follow throws their weight at the floor.

[David F]

I hate, hate hate it when an arm goes round my neck.

Aside from being uncomfortable, if the woman actually puts any load on that arm, it completely takes me off balance.

As a general observation:

I find most dips and drops work best when the woman is not doing anything active with her arms to hold herself up. In other words, for seducers I don't want her holding on anywhere 'high', such as the neck, and for drops, I want her to let her arms go straight.

If the man knows what he's doing, my experience is that this is much more comfortable, requires less effort, and is much less likely to take him off balance.

The problem is that if the man really doesn't know what he's doing, the follow is likely to go 'squish'.

Since Ceroc (or anywhere else teaching a wide range of abilities in rotation) can't assume the man will get it right, they tend to go for a technique which doesn't assume the man will do his side properly. Unfortunately I find the result to generally be a bit of a bodge with neither side doing things correctly.