Southern UK Jive

[Southern Jiver]

In a number of threads, people like Steve, Nicky and Jiveonaut among others have talked about "Musicality" and Jive. This term has been used fairly freely in the dancing world and I was interested to find out a bit more about it's meaning. One definition I found was "Musicality means making the dance fit the music. The goal is relating the dance to the music, to its rhythm, melody, mood. For example, dancers usually step when musicians play notes or rhythm and hold when musicians hold (play rests). Or, dancers move more exaggerately when the music goes louder, and more simply when the music goes quiet. In a song with many instruments, dancers may chose to respond to any one of them, or any group of them."

This seems pretty straight-forward to me, basically you dance by responding to the music. However, there has to be more to it than that.

Wikipedia offers : "Musicality is a noun that means sensitivity to, knowledge of, or talent for music. The word also refers to the quality or state of being musical (aka melodiousness.) A musical person has the ability to perceive differences in pitch, rhythm and harmonies. One usually differentiates between three types of musicality: To be able to perceive music (musical receptivity), to be able to reproduce music as well as creating music (musical creativity).

Musicality refers to fitting a dance to the music being played, with the goal of relating the dance to the music's rhythm, melody, and mood. Dancers usually step on the beats of the music, and may vary the size of their movements with the volume of the music. This is especially true in choreography, where dancers plan a routine of dance moves, sometimes with a specific song in mind. This is also a key characteristic of improvised swing dancing. Unlike most ballroom dances which tend to use the music as a metronome to guide the dance, Lindy Hop and West Coast swing view matching your dancing to the spirit/mood of the music is the highest goal achievable."

That's a bit more explanatory but I really want to understand the concept better as it refers to Jiving. I don't think I am wrong in saying that quite a high proportion of the music played at Jive nights doesn't really offer great opportunities for musicality to be expressed. But this is not necessarily a bad thing, in my opinion, as there are many other aspects to Jiving other than the opportunity to express musicality. Jiving can be enjoyed by anyone with very little training, of any size, shape and age, even people with poor coordination can advance to quite high levels of competence with Jive. The enjoyment with Jive comes from the movement to the music, the sharing of a connection with your partner, the excitement of the dance and the social aspects of Jiving. There are no pretensions that "matching your dancing to the spirit/mood of the music is the highest goal achievable" as for WCS for example. The enjoyment in Jive is in being able to participate, in my view. Of course, there are always people who will be able to squeeze more musicality out of a Jive track, and that's very commendable but for the average Jiver, I don't believe musicality has as much importance as does the participation in the dance.
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Steve]

Dancing without musicality could be defined as "Moving to a beat". That is just about (with apologies to the very few nights that go further) what is taught on an average MJ lesson night, stepping to the beat and doing the moves one after the other like clockwork.
It is the basis of MJ, and a huge factor in it's success... relatively speaking, easy to teach, easy to pickup.

No complaints or arguments here.

I've heard one old and well known Ballroomer describe that sort of jive as "Dancercise". A judge on one of those public reality dance TV shows saw a top jiver audition many moons ago and told him he couldn't judge him because he didn't know after the jiving whether he could dance or not!!! Thing is, being callous, if all you do is your moves to a single beat, what's the difference between that and marching ? - Holding hands ?

Of course, there is more to Modern Jive than that. Not much more on your average lesson night, they are for beginners/improvers. Not at your average DYD/Mojive/Jiveriot freestyle. Nothing wrong with those freestyles that catching up a decade or so wouldn't fix, but it is a mistake to think those narrow targetted freestyles based on a decade old model represent the only way to MJ. There is so much more out there in the wide, wide world.

In answer to your question about "what is musicality". I believe at the most basic level, the step up between moving to a beat aka marching and moving to the music aka dancing is musicality.

And whilst I defend the right of anyone to dance how they like within reason, once you get past the musicality 'threshold', I've yet to meet a single person who somehow wanted to warp back to a non-musicality version of their dancing .
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My local WCS dance guide: http://www.southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726

[Jiveonaut]

What a fab question! I will try not to fill your server up answering it as I see it!!!!

Music is like language. It has form, structure, rules etc. When we talk to each other we respond to whats being said and reply. If I screamed abuse at you you would respond in a different way than if I praised you. We can say the same things in different ways to mean different things (love it - sarcastic; love it - mean it) or say one thing to mean another (Its wicked! meaning cool). You get the idea.

Music is the same. The artist/composer wants to say something, and the singer is laying their thoughts and feelings on it as well. Take Chumbawumba's 'Firestarter'. It has something to say, certainly, and its effect on the listener is different than say Michael Buble's 'Just haven't met you yet'. When we listen to something, we all form an opinion. Like, dislike, cool, rubbish, bonkers, meaningful etc. We may even say this out loud to others. Dancing is a way of expressing the feeling the music inspires, but with movement and not words.

However, when we go dancing (hopefully) we should/are trying to react to what we're listening (LISTENING - I'll come back to this) to with the dance. Some songs are wild and frenetic, some are soft and fluffy, some are sad, some are happy etc. Examples of dancing in a way that goes against the message/feeling/zen of the song would be to Lindy Hop to Perfect Day by Lou Reed, or waltz to Motorhead's Ace of Spades. You could do, but the song is not asking you to do so and you'd look a bit silly.

So first part of musicality - dance to what you're listening to. Now very nearly every song is made of blocks of 8 beats (been here before, so here's the diet version.) they usually have verses and a chorus. This structure doesn't change. From a dancing pov, there's also usually at least three things going on (layers, if you like) - the melody (ie the tune we whistle in the street, the singing or instruments matching the singing), the background (ie bass guitars, violins) and the beat (ie drums or what ever is 'calling time'). Good example of this is L.O.V.E (ace song, please play DJs!!!!!) by Nat King Cole, which does exactly this and builds up as it goes along so you can spot the different layers as they come in

This is where the musicality that we can bring to dancing comes in, because we can dance to one, two or all three (or four or five or six....), chop and change between them, hit breaks and stops etc.

In Jive, this translates as follows. Most jivers dance to the beat. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc. They do this non-stop for the entire song. They also do the moves as they have been taught and focus more on doing the moves than doing the moves to the music or better yet matching the moves to the music. This is what Nicky has mentioned in another thread as having put her off All That Jazz, as it is a song bursting with breaks, stops, and if you're handy at dancing, as she so certainly is, its immensely frustrating to get a song like this but a partner who just grinds through his moves regardless. However, if Nicky was partnered with the “Vincent Simone” of modern jive, while they would both be moving to the beat, they would be dancing to the melody and or the background. I.e., if Catherine Zeta Jones was singing “alllllllllllllllllllllll thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat Jaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, over 8 beats, Vincent would lead her into three movements only that would match the singing, such as three slides, three dips in succession etc. When ATJ starts, with a ‘dum di dum di dum pause di dum di dum di dum di dum’ Vincent may do a walk on each beat with a pause in the break etc. ATJ lends itself to a move ‘slotted’ dance, whereas dancing to Candyman, as the song is very high energy and fast paced, ‘Vincent’ may do other moves, lots of arm twirls, spins and turns that suit the music and allow him to match what he is feeling about the track to the track. Tango music can be very staccato, rhumba smooth and flowing etc.

This has a lot to do with why Blues dancing has a ‘marmite’ effect on so many people, because dancing slowly FORCES you to listen to the song, and not just the beat. Some people don’t like it (can’t do it, too slow) and some people love it (we just clicked…). In a similar way to how people get frustrated if they can't say what the mean/feel, many dancers don't like dances that say something that they can't say or feel. Back to language, you can ask for 'une biere s'il vous plait', and you're chuffed with your french at that point, but when the waiter asks 'en boutielle ou en pression' your french runs out (mine has) and you wind up speaking English slooooooooowly at le waiter instead. Which doesn't help.... Same with dancing with musicality.

So musicality in MJ, in my humble opinion (and I agree with Steve as well) is down to interpreting the music, and dancing TO it, and not just banging out moves. Musicality is the expression of the dance. Back to my language metaphor, the moves are the vocab, the techniques employed (lead, follow, tension, the slot etc etc etc) the grammar and the dancing is the expression of those words, formed into phrases, to impart their meaning. And like language, it only comes with practice and experience. My English is very good, my German very poor and my Italian a step away from a diplomatic incident. With practice, experience and many trips to Italy ( ) my Italian will get better. Same with dancing. If you can't do it now, keep practising, as one day you will, and you will be very happy at that point.
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[Southern Jiver]

I love the explanation, Jiveonaut...what more can be said? I think you just achieved the first Forum Star award! SJ
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Steve]

[Nicky]

Spent an absolute age last night replying to this thread before I went out, only to have my computer crash as I pressed "submit"...Grrrrrrr! However, I don't think that I expressed my thoughts quite as eloquently as Jiveonaut..... Thank you very much for your kind words, by the way

Five people sitting down and listening to a particular track may all hear different things within the music.... One may hate it, whilst another will love it. The lyrics may be particularly poignant for one person and reduce them to tears, whilst another may find themselves tapping along to the drum beat.... You get the idea!

Music affects us all in different ways, and will therefore bring different elements into our dancing; fast, multiple spins may be followed by a slow, controlled ronde, if that is what the music is telling the dancers to do. There is no right or wrong; its about personal understanding and interpretation, and then expression of that within dance.

Musicality, in my opinion, is all about allowing a piece of music to speak to us, and then responding to it through dance..... Do what comes naturally!

[Dr Dance]

Thats where I've been going wrong.

I thought musicality was 1 - 2 - 3 - handjive. Then 1 - 2 - 3 - basket. Then repeat. Didn't even realise that there was music.

Thank you all

[Bungle]

[Andy T-R]

Great post Jiveonaut - here are a few extra thoughts 'cos musicality is what I luuuurve.

Musicality is fitting the dance to the music - for sure. There are lots of different ways of doing this though. These are the ones I can think of:

1. The way you move to each step.
2. Hesitations/extensions.
3. Choice of moves.
4. Accents.
5. Non-MJ moves.

1. The way you move to each step.
Most people learn to move to the MJ moves in one way - their way.
But you can vary this if you want to. There are two variations - elevation (bouncyness) and timing.
Elevation: You can dance smoother for swing or bouncier for RnR or anything in between. There's not so much room for variation here I think but ...
Timing: Here there's loads of opportunity. Take, for example, the First Move In-and-Out (where, from the turned out position, you bring your partner a quarter turn toward you and you step forward a quarter turn until you are face-to-face. Then you turn out and repeat. Those tuns 'in' and 'out' can be done with a few different timings.
MJ would say just 'do them on the beat' and that's absolutely fine and is what I do most of the time.
But if it's a Tango track I would bring my partner 'in' fast than usual so we arrive face to face just before the beat. Then I would pause momentarily until the beat 'catches up' and then turn her 'out' so we arrive at the apart position ahead of the beat again and get a pause again. That gives it a staccato feel and the dramatic look of tango (sort of ... I'm not saying I'm a Tango dancer but it lets me feel I've changed my dancing to be more 'tango'ish').
Then again if it's a lounge trakc (Sinatra etc) I'd do the opposite - I'd bring my partner in and come to a stop as smoothly as possible and try to merge the stop into the strat of the turning out.
Then again for Latin I'd make it very snappy - crisp in and out with no pause in between.
Etc.
Each of these makes the same simple step look and more importantly FEEL different. And obviously the same approach can be used for every step of every move (if you've got the focus!).

2. Hesitations/extensions.
Pausing between steps and extending steps to last more than one beat (as Jiveonaut described so well) in order to accent the flow of the music work well but are, I think, much harder to master. You need to be completely stable and balanced with a good tension between you and your partner to make them work. Not my speciality so I won't comment too much .

3. Choice of moves.
One of the best things about MJ is the VAST range of moves we have to call on.
I try to pick moves during a song that firstly fit the song (multiple double-speed spins just don't seem to go with Sinatra ) and secondly fir the momemnt in the song. What do I mean by that? Well, to me some bits of songs sound 'rotational/whirly' - The Bongo Song has lots! So in those parts of a song I try to use spins, pirouettes and walkarounds. Other bits sound 'processional' so I'd try to do columbians/quick-steps/etc. Yet other parts are 'sharp' and here I'd go for First Move In-and-Out, Beach Ball, etc. You get the idea? If I know a song well I just love to be ready and go into what feels like an appropriate move just as the song changes to that 'feel'.
It just needs a bit of thinking about all the moves you know and what 'feel' of song the seem to fit best with - then a bot of practice calling them up from memory at the right time!

4. Accents.
There are two types of accent that I think about

Places in a song where it's just a bit louder and more definite (usually the first beat of certain bars within the song). These you can accent just by leading your partner in/out slightly more strongly and making the end of the beat slightly exaggerated with the way you stop moving your lead hand. (That's a rubbish description but I can't put it any better).

Also the big dramatic moments we all know about (how many are there in the track Sway? Dunno, but lots - unless a DJ is playing the cover version - Girls Aloud is it? - where the music keeps going right through the dramatic stops making them much less dramatic - please stop DJs!). Anyway, where was I, oh yes, gettting a lean/drop/seducer/etc right on one of those moments is a great feeling. But how do you hit the spot? I try hard and sometimes manage it, sometimes not. The tricks I use are sticking to a few accent moves and knowing which ones are quick to get into (2 or 3 beats) so I can do them with little warning if I don't spot the moment until it's just about arrived. Also I work on varying other accent moves so that I can make them shorter or longer so they time in better
.
If you go for a drop/whatever and realise you're going to be too early you can always do a double spin to waste a beat or repeat the prep part (for axample if the prep is a First Move turn out, do one in-and-out and THEN go into the drop) or take longer 'going down' into position.

If you get into your position too early hold it a bit longer and come out where you would have done if you'd got it right.

A dead stop is a good accent - not fancy but effective.

Most leans/drops can be done over one or more beats. If you're getting the timing right you can use this to make the move fit the style of the music - quick drop for Latin, slow seducer for lounge, etc.


5. Non-MJ moves.
I like to learn a few non-MJ moves that fit particular music styles. Just for a bit of fun and variety. I find the beginner lessons of other dance styles - RnR, Lindy, Tango, etc. will give you 'moves' you can import to MJ even if you don't want to spend the time mastering the 'style' of the dance. At least it livens up the MJ.

Also it's amazing how many moves turn out to be almost the same across all the dance styles!

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Re-reading that lot it's not very useful but it's taken a while to write so here goes 'submit' ...
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Andy