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Southern UK Jive
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Andy McGregor
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Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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Location: Brighton/Shoreham by Sea
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 Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: Semi-circle, step back or not to semi-circle, step back? |
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| Enigma wrote: | | Andy/Jiveonaut - I like the push away start, as oppsoed to the Ceroc semi-circle; is this likely to lead to the same problems? |
There's not much wrong with the semi-circle - at least when you compare it to the ubiquitous "& both step back". For a start the guy/leader is stepping back into the unknown - not really appropriate for a crowded, social dance floor. And secondly "both" stepping back creates a huge gulf between partners which can only be spanned by straight arms. As soon as the elbow is locked out you need to start using the muscles of your lower back to maintain a connection - this is not good for your back and make change places style moves a very long journey.
My advice is to stay closer to your partner and keep a bend in your elbows: adjust the bend in the elbow to maintain connection as the distance between partners changes. This means you can keep the elbow pointing down* which is good for dance posture keeping the shoulders down and means you use the muscles of the arm and shoulder to maintain connection which is less harmful to your back and shoulder joint. Think of the elbow as a joint in yor suspension system - if your suspension has bottomed out or is extended as far as it will travel you are more likely to cause damage to your chassis and will, at the very least, have a bumpy journey!
How do you stay close to your partner? Move your feet intelligently rather than slavishly stepping back or away from your partner. If the lady steps back a long way and you want to maintain a nice dancing distance the intelligent thing is to step forward rather than back.
*Apart from moves where the lady passes under your arm - in those you need to point your elbow upwards to give the lady room and not elbow her in the face! |
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Steve
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Joined: 17 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Really straightening the arms seems to be typical of many inexperienced dancers. Seen it a lot regardless of the teaching organisation. My guess would be it's more to do with 'control' and a logical extension of the normal Modern Jive accordian motion than anything to do with one starting move that's never repeated during the dance.
Surprizingly, I have never, never ever heard any teacher, of any organisation, address it tho, which is strange as it's easy to point out and fix, and fixing it is a necessary ingredient of integrity/frame. And whilst there is a place for full extension re-bound on occasion, as a general rule IMO the dance feels so much smoother and controlled without that extreme.
That said, no good Modern Jive dancers (that I can think of) seem to suffer from the problem, so obviously it's self-fixable. Perhaps the peeps that make the decisions decided they had more intractable problems to address in the time allotted 
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Andy McGregor
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Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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Location: Brighton/Shoreham by Sea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve wrote: | | That said, no good Modern Jive dancers (that I can think of) seem to suffer from the problem, so obviously it's self-fixable. Perhaps the peeps that make the decisions decided they had more intractable problems to address in the time allotted |
Possibly you only become a good modern jiver if you work it out for yourself. Chicken and egg.
Offhand I can't think of any worse "intractable problems" than being too far from your partner to lead them properly. There's the over-rotation, frame breaking, hand bouncing, not looking at your partner, bad posture, not hearing the beat or beat 1 of the 8 and not moving your feet problems. But they're not quite a bad as being too far away, IMHO.
The only problem I can think of which is worse is one that a teacher can't cure. Modern Jive is a social dance and some people are downright anti-social  |
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TeeDee
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Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 272
Location: Cornwall
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy McGregor wrote: | | The only problem I can think of which is worse is one that a teacher can't cure. Modern Jive is a social dance and some people are downright anti-social |
Ha Ha!! Very funny Andy!
I've been to many, many lessons, both Ceroc and others, where they've tried very hard to point out that the "step back" is a small step and to keep a bend in the elbow - or however else they describe it. It amounts to the same thing - don't allow your arm(s) to become fully extended.
I mention this every single beginner lesson and during some int lessons too. Does that mean everyone in my lessons take nice small steps back and don't try to disslocate their partners shoulders? No, of course not - not everyone is listening...
As for the semi-circle thing... That was the first thing I threw away as it adds nothing at all (in my opinion). Instead I tend to make a bigger deal of the hand connection and correct compression and tension to help encourage lead and follow right from the start. Such simple movements broken right down to, hopefully, make the eventual step up to intermediates that much easier.
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Andy McGregor
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TeeDee wrote: | I've been to many, many lessons, both Ceroc and others, where they've tried very hard to point out that the "step back" is a small step and to keep a bend in the elbow - or however else they describe it. It amounts to the same thing - don't allow your arm(s) to become fully extended.
I mention this every single beginner lesson and during some int lessons too. Does that mean everyone in my lessons take nice small steps back and don't try to disslocate their partners shoulders? No, of course not - not everyone is listening... |
I've removed the back step completely from my instructions. I tell the guys to step out of the lady's line of dance. But some of them still step back and stay on the line! I simplify this instruction once in a while by talking about beach towels, yes really! for moves where the lady is travelling straight forward or back I say that the lady is dancing up and down her towel and the guy needs to step off or over her towel, on to the sand, to get out of her way. Sometimes I mention that the sand is very hot and the guy stands on the hot sand to prove he is manly and can take pain - I say this when the voices in my head are screaming louder than usual!
| TeeDee wrote: | | As for the semi-circle thing... That was the first thing I threw away as it adds nothing at all (in my opinion). Instead I tend to make a bigger deal of the hand connection and correct compression and tension to help encourage lead and follow right from the start. Such simple movements broken right down to, hopefully, make the eventual step up to intermediates that much easier. |
I don't teach the semi-circle either. I think it promotes frame breaking, over-rotation and hand bouncing. But it was a difficult decision as it does give a clear signal that the dancing is about to start.
Nowadays I teach that a simple pulse of compression is all that's required to provide the lady with the momentum to step back right on the 1. However, the timing of that pulse is difficult to teach absolute beginners because it must precede the 1 of the 8 but it must be after 8 of the previous 8 count - one the 'er' of 7, 8, er, 1. The semi-circle on the 8 is a great way to get the lady to step back on the 1 without being remotely technical. Therefore I gave a lot of thought to taking it out of beginners lessons. I never had a problem removing it from intermediate lessons. |
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TeeDee
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Location: Cornwall
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Ha Ha Ha - Beach towels! That's got me laughing Andy!!! We all have our little analogies we use, but that has to be right up there with the funniest - I imagine it to be rather effective too (assuming they are listening) ?
One of the reasons I found it a fairly easy decision to bin the semi-circle is exactly because it is a "signal" - I decided to try and show lead and follow right from the start and a "signal" undermines this straight away. A bit like saying the hand out at the start of a Man Spin is a signal to the ladies. No - I say it is the men preparing so that new ladies are disscouraged from seeing a signal, anticipating the move and jumping straight in BEFORE the music. When this happens the leaders have no chance of getting the timing right.
So I try to get the simple in and out working (straight back for both) from a lead and follow point of view. In fact, when banging on about compression and tension and so on, I keep the timing random (no rythm) on purpose to encourage the mind to focus on the dance connection. I then introduce timing afterwards.
It is only once we are going through actual moves that I talk about the chap getting of the ladies line. Slightly differently to you, Andy, in that I get them to move out of the way on the way back in...
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Andy McGregor
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Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 393
Location: Brighton/Shoreham by Sea
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TeeDee wrote: | | Ha Ha Ha - Beach towels! That's got me laughing Andy!!! We all have our little analogies we use, but that has to be right up there with the funniest - I imagine it to be rather effective too (assuming they are listening) ? |
When I'm at my most mental seems to be when they start listening. I blame the nurses at the home, sometimes they give me the tablets meant for the mad, incontinent lady in the next room... |
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