Southern UK Jive

[Southern Jiver]

I went to a great freestyle at Minstead last night and I danced all night. It was brilliant. However, suddenly, a half an hour before it was due to finish, the chill-out session started by the DJ playing a track of such snail-like pace that the few that remained on the floor looked like they were hardly moving. The rest of the half-hour, that could have been used for proper Jiving rather than the other styles that were in evidence, was wasted as far as I was concerned. I wasn't the only one as there was a mass exodus to the door. I think it's a shame that the freestyle was cut short like that as I personally would have preferred to have been able to Jive up to the very end of the period that I paid for. What does anyone else think?
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Happy Camper]

I'm with you on this one, SJ. i think that chillout sessions are a complete waste of good jiving time. i think they are only put there to placate some of the west coast swing and tango crowd while the rest of us jivers are sent home. i wasn't at minstead but i can understand your frustration if it was a great night and you were forced to stop jiving.

[Steve]

I love the chill out sessions.

Many moons ago, when Mojive began it's dominance of this area, a jive black hole was created. Nothing ever entered this black hole, and nothing got out. As a result, changes that took place outside the black hole, e.g. the rise of slower dancing, slotted dancing, and many other changes as Modern Jive progressed in the rest of the UK just never arrived down here. We've been stuck in a 1990's time warp.

That's neither good nor bad. It just was. Except that now that has changed. With the collapse of Mojive as a dance company, Ceroc has moved in bringing with them the choice and variation the rest of the UK has had for a decade or so. Not surprizingly, for some, there has been a bit of a culture clash.

For me personally? Well, I like fast dancing, but I like slow dancing too, and I have been bored with the same old limited dross doled out by Mojive/Jiveriot/DYD for years. With the exception of Minstead, it's not like those freestyles have just stopped for those that like that narrow range of music and nothing but that music.

And for those of us who like more mellow music, or like more variation, or want to progress our dancing in a different direction, we now have choices previously denied to us. It's great

I can't speak for the MOM Minstead as I haven't been for a couple of months, but at the EOM Minstead, the number of people staying to dance the last half an hour has been rising steadily. Now very few leave the moment it starts (I remember the very first couple of Ceroc Minsteads, it was truly a mass exodus ). I guess that is thanks to the CerocFever Blues lessons once a month at Bramshaw (I hear very good and popular!), and the CerocLive Blues lessons down their way.

One odd side effect of this change, it's also great to see young people at Minstead again. Our freestyles have got so old down here. I walk into a DYD or Mojive freestyle and I feel young. YOUNG! That shouldn't happen, I am an old(ish) git. It was so good to see the younger crowd at the last few EOM Minsteads. They bring a unique buzz and energy. All frickin' good dancers too. Long may that continue!

As far as I am concerned, the introduction of more mellow music/variation and the chill out sessions has been the best development down here for over a decade.

Can't wait for EOM Minstead now
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My local WCS dance guide: http://www.southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726

[Southern Jiver]

I hear what you are saying, Steve, and can't argue with your opinions but my opinion is that the slower tracks that are played in the last half-hour could be slipped into the freestyle in the middle , maybe three at a time, to give people a break instead of putting them all at the end of the freestyle and leaving nothing for the Jivers who prefer to avoid the slower ones. That way, Jivers have a choice about whether to dance the slower ones instead of knowing full well that there will be no more faster ones played so they might as well go home. That was my point.
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Happy Camper]

[Steve]

[Mops]

I can see where you're coming from SJ, but having just moved back down to the area one of the things that is really noticable is the lack of blues dancing which goes on South of London.
I for one adore dancing blues as it gives you a chance to really listen to, and play with the music. For me it's often the highlight of the evening, when you get a good blues track, and a dancer who helps you use the music. Equally when it's getting late and you've been dancing a lot it's sometimes nice to have the slower stuff and even simply revolve on the spot - it can't be beaten!!

Don't get me wrong - I love the fast tracks as well, Candyman with the right partner leaves me absolutely buzzing, but for the end of the evening, when I've got a drive home etc having half an hour of chill out music where i can relax, play and connect with my partner makes the difference between a good evening, and a great one!!
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Dance with you heart, and your feet will follow.

[Jiveonaut]

In my experience lots of people prefer medium to fast tracks, because its what they're good/better at, and what gives them the buzz from dancing. Slower dances are harder for at least two reasons - (a) you have to move slower, and (b) they can be much more intimate.

In some ways ( a) can be addressed by expanding your MJ vocab. While I quite like blues classes, while some are quite specialist, some come over to me as a way of teaching basic MJ moves slowly (I get an "Emperor's new clothes" feeling from them.) If you can expand your reportoire, then you wind up with moves appropriate to each dance. This in turn beefs up your musicality. You can then do more appropriate moves to certain tracks and so dance to them. A chill out session is a great way to practice/do this.

As for (b), this can depend on your partner and more importantly your confidence (in other words you!). When I first started MJ I was terribly stiff upper lip about the whole thing- indeed only a massive amount of Gordon's got me through the door for my first 3 goes!! As time went on I realised that ladies would not explode if I held their hands, that they wouldn't thump me if I did a basket and that some of them actually quite liked doing harder, closer and more intricate moves. I realised that "zero-gravity" dancing was a bit naff (which is one of the biggest turn offs for chill out hours if this is all you can do, but you do have to start somewhere!), and so looked to learn newer/different moves. I stuck at it, and now quite like them. My reluctance to start slower blues-like dancing was an extension of the feelings I had when I first started - ie its a confidence thing.

But its also a partner thing. I prefer slower tracks with people I know, and who I know like them as well, or I know want to try them and get better at them. I still get a bit stiff upper lip sometimes (I am a proud Englishman after all), and do feel self conscious sometimes with the more intimate type moves (Madam, we've not been formally introduced....). For a bloke its easier, cos we're leading and nominally in charge - For the ladies its more difficult, because they follow but may not be comfortable with what the lead is asking. I do know that some ladies dislike them because they're more intimate and just don't want that from a dance, esp from a relative stranger. I also know that some fab blues ladies can have bad experiences because their partners for a dance have seen them "wiggling" previously and so assume they want to wiggle with them as well. I'm also sure that some blokes like slower stuff BECAUSE its slower and can get in up close and personal. They are usually the sweatier men in the venue. While the ladies may grin and bear it, it does not impress...

I'm rambling a bit (I've had wine...) but the long and short of it is it comes down to personal choice. Not so long ago the ONLY choice round here was 'trad' MJ. This was usually at the same beat/tempo/places with the same tunes/people. If thats what you wanted, great, if you didn't, you went looking for whatever you wanted elsewhere or stopped dancing and joined a Golf Club (I know!). Now, chill out sessions, second rooms, specialist workshops, weekenders, WCS, Blues, (and also Tango, Cha Cha, Salsa etc) are all permeating into our area, from London, Bristol, and dare I upset a few people by saying from Ceroc and their big move into the area, and allowing MJ to grow and evolve and develop where before it was at risk of stagnating and even fizzling out. Therefore as an example of this growth chill out sessions can only be a good thing!!!
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[Southern Jiver]

Interesting comments, Jiveonaut. This subject has been discussed before on the thread at http://southernjive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230

To my mind, the whole concept that people should desire to "evolve" their dancing by moving towards WCS , Blues etc is flawed as some people just want to carry on Jiving. They have fun doing it, have no need to prove anything to anyone and are really happy Jiving. Anyone can Jive, whatever their physical attributes and it can be learned relatively quickly. Personally I don't think it takes more skill to dance more slowly, if anything it takes more to dance at a faster pace. It's fine if people want to learn WCS and Blues but they should respect that there are others who are fulfilled by Jiving the night away.
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Jiveonaut]

SJ I do agree with everything you say - I would tend to the view however that MJ can expand by incorporating aspects/moves/etc of other dances into MJ, and not evolve MJ into something else. MJ is already littered with moves that reference other dances - First move cha cha, Tango lean, etc. I even learnt a move once called a First Move polka, but can't remember it (teachers out there - do you know it?) MJ is already an amalgam of different styles to which Blues and WCS can add to, and not detract from. I'd be very wary however of codifying or solidifying MJ into something rigid and formal, that shies away from new and different things. All Dance is like language - if it won't or can't evolve, then it will eventually perish or wind up a minority activity practised by an ever ageing set of practicioners. And that would be a tragedy.

As we both say its a personal thing. Some like slower stuff, some don't. Neither view is wrong. MJ's beauty is in part because anyone can do it, to whatever level they want to.

There are different skills required to dance fast and to dance slowly. To counter your point that it "takes more to dance at a faster pace", one could say that it requires more to dance slower. More relevantly, more what? Skill, precision, lead, follow, musicality, practice, luck, confidence, horsepower, something else? These are interchangeable things whatever speed you dance at.

From a purely practical pov, a single hall venue like Minstead does need to try something to cater for all tastes, and there are pros and cons to both ways mentioned here - slow songs sprinkled throughout the night or a dedicated 30 mins at the end. I'm no venue manager, but the 30 mins approach is easier to sell, and will affect less people who don't want to do this as many will have gone home before then anyway. (Sometimes there's an exodus immediately after the free tea and cakes at some venues!)
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[Southern Jiver]

You make good points, Jiveonaut. Yes, Jive is an amalgam of dance styles and I understand what you say about it solidifying into a rigid form but my concern is that there are people who believe that MJ, in it's present form, is de rigeur and that WCS is the way forward. I have been a fly on the wall to a conversation at Camber Sands where WCS dancers were discussing the previous night and saying how good it was until those MJers came down and ruined it for everyone. I hope that MJ will continue to exist alongside WCS and I pray that WCS becomes popular enough that there are freestyles specially for that style so that the Jive freestyles revert to just that again. I guess that makes me an ever aging practitioner!

As far as which requires more of something (yes, it's not really skill), faster or slower dancing...I think you are right. It doesn't really matter as different people will have different preferences at whatever speed and will tend to enjoy the speed that is best for them.

Also, I hadn't considered about the chill out session that a lot of people will have left anyway before the end of a freestyle. I guess the thread came up because I was having such a good night that I didn't want it to end and I found the evening drawn to a premature end (for me).
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[Nicky]

SJ wrote:

[Steve]

[Jiveonaut]

Glad you had a great time SJ!! I always like it when I get the whole "time flew" feeling at a freestyle!

Steve, I quite like a lot of what you say. Around here there was/is a tendency to teach jive without installing smooth arms, with the result that many people allow their arms to bounce up and down with the music. As a happy product of the "Ceroc machine", I can tell the difference between someone who learnt at a Ceroc venue (not bouncy) and someone who learnt elsewhere (boing boing boing!), with Mo jivers being a good example, not that its their fault but that the way they were taught was different from the way I was and allowed these technical issues to set into their dancing, and with the insularity of some venues meaning that they knew no better. I'm NOT a fan of the "one organisation good others bad" school which often appears on SJF, so I'm not going to play that game, but its true that some venues around here got stuck in a comfort zone, musically, in dance terms and in terms of what they provided, esp at freestyles. Over the last 18 months they've all been thoroughly shaken up up, some withdrew, some expanded, some started, some finished, and others changed. Leaving us, joe customer, spoilt for choice!
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[lilblue]

Firstly the chill out session - for me, it will depend on how desperate I am for the night to continue as to whether I stay! I am hugely intimidated by the moves and style that goes hand-in-hand with slow music (No - I don't want to stick my bum into your crotch and wiggle. Sir.) UNLESS I am dancing with somebody I know well enough to be plastering myself against them. As previously mentioned, slow songs a few at a time throughout the freestyle do not seem to develop this 'feel' and I rather enjoy dancing to them, once the 'blues half hour' is announced though, or you enter the 'blues room' it seems to be an excuse to get away with seedy behaviour.

I agree that modern jive should not stop slurping up little bits of style and influence - but I do feel that perhaps a lead might consider whether his partner (in my case normally half his age) really wants to bump and grind with him. I enjoy dancing to slow music, I enjoy blues with regular partners; but I don't like feeling as though I'm being taken advantage of. Some men (and women, in actual fact) seem to enjoy the close contact a little too much and THAT is what puts me off the chill out sessions.