Southern UK Jive

[Andy T-R]

I've been mulling over what I think good dancing is (from a man's perspective).
I think there are three reasons to dance:
For your partner (most important).
For yourself (less important but still important).
For people watching (not at all important).

Each of those three needs completely different skills but maybe a 'good dancer' is someone who can do all the above very well (not many can, I suspect I know I can't!).

For your partner (in order of importance imho)
1. Be nice. Put her enjoyment first. Smile. Interact.
If you need lessons in this then ... er ...

2. Be CLEAR in your lead. The worst feeling for a lady is not being sure what you are asking of her - she can't relax unless she is confident you are leading and will continue to lead the dance clearly so she can just enjoy it.

Probably this is the crux of being a good dancer - how well you lead. I've yet to find a teacher who can really explain leading properly. Many say you 'have to have good tension' etc but that's telling not teaching. I'd love to know who's best at teaching leading - I'd be there like a shot! Any recommendations?

3. Most ladies (I think) enjoy the feel of the movement rather than the technical accomplishment of dancing. Let your partner move in the way she enjoys - some ladies like to spin, some to be 'whooshed' in big sweeping moves, some to do drops, some to be lead through new moves they've never done before, etc.
Most like all the above!
If you can tell what she's enjoying most do more of it.
And DON'T do things you like but she's struggling to follow or clearly isn't enjoying (obviously! ).

4. Be musical - make your dance fit the music.
Learn a variety of moves that will fit with different music styles. You don't have to restrict your moves - just do more of the ones that fit best with whatever's playing.
Practice listening for the accents in the music and try to get accents into your dancing (stops/leans/drops/etc.). Listen to the common tracks around the house or in the car until you 'know' when the accent points are coming without having to think.


For yourself
There's nothing really good or bad about this bit - it's what you enjoy not what's good or bad.


For people watching
Unless you're being paid to perform who cares what you look like to others?


I'm sure others will have wildly differing views from mine - these are just opinions. Can't wait to see what others think.
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Andy

[Southern Jiver]

Very good post Andy. I agree with everything you have said there.

[Andy T-R]

Thanks SJ, I'll try that - sounds easy . . . bet it's hard to do well
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Andy

[Bungle]

[Andy T-R]

Ha, ha. Yes - forgot about the exalted world of competition performance . Out of my league, of course!
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Andy

[Nicky]

This is an interesting topic. Thought i'd give you a followers perspective...

I regularly hear ladies comment after dancing with a guy that he is a 'good, strong lead', as if being a strong lead is some kind of prerequisite to being a good lead. Not necessarily so, in my opinion.

A guy with a strong lead may well be able to get his follower to execute moves, but is using brute force really classed as leading? Dancing with such a lead may result in a dance that appears good to onlookers, but will always leave me feeling dissatisfied.....

For me, leading and following cannot really be considered as seperate issues. After all, neither is of any use without the other..... Dance is all about making a connection with your partner and understanding the way in which they listen to and interpret the music. Every dancer and every dance is different. Surely the lead should therefore alter accordingly.

Andy makes some really good points:

[Andy McGregor]

[Jiveonaut]

Interesting stuff above.

I tend to the view that, as the song goes, it’s not what you do, it’s the way that you do it. The lead and follow for any dance is very much a technique thing. Most over-strong male leads are caused by the males substituting physical power for that technique. If you've ever watched a drops class, see how many guys are actually throwing the ladies about and depending on their strength to keep the ladies, and themselves, upright. Sometimes you can watch and actually wince as they do this, as their backs look as if they will surely pop! I've called this, previously on this forum, the haybale technique. It is quite possible to do most basic dips and even drops with one finger of each hand, although it does help if you have a lady who is also good at technique and doesn’t just hang on.

I’ve done something similar to Nicky by dancing MJ without actual contact – it is possible to do drops doing that as well!!! It does show its all in the signals and technique – no way horsepower can dig you out of trouble doing this.

I’m not sure about the 10lb rule – my recent scientific experiment using the fruit and veg scales in Waitrose would suggest my lead exerts a pull of 1 lb. Others will differ but 10lb seems a bit excessive to me. However an excessively strong lead is a bad thing, as it can be very hard to follow, and may overpower and even hurt the ladies who are often, despite years of equality legislation, still not built like Viking warlords.

Guys, think of ladies like cars: unless you’re driving a fifties lorry, you would not hold the steering wheel in a vice like grip, slam the gears up and down while ignoring the clutch, yank the steering wheel from side to side and do an emergency stop everytime you brake. And yet that’s how some blokes lead the ladies on a dance floor.

What you should do is match your partner. I’ve demo’d classes before where the teacher has used playing cards and even loo roll to show what sort of pressure/pull you’re after. It’s a bit of fun really, but does show what effect we’re after with a lead. If the tough of taking a wad of Andrex on the dancefloor doesn’t appeal, then at least listen to the lady and react to how she’s dancing. If you’re lucky enough to get a Nicky, then soften your lead, reduce the size of your movements and signals but make them clearer. If you get a fifties lorry, then its only 3 mins…. But remember, she may have danced with haybalers only, and the experience of a proper lead could be a revelation to her. And guys, you will know when you get it right, as it’ll be a revelation to you too!!
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Words are good, but hens lay eggs.

[The-G-Man]

A good male dancer should just have fun and enjoy the dance with whom they are dancing at the time and not get involved with all the politics surrounding modern day Modern Jive.

Nothing personal to the above posts as everyone has their own views on this.

[Nicky]

Ooooops! I really must refrain from skim reading.... I assumed this topic was about male leads as opposed to male dancers...Sorry all!

Any guy who gives me all of his attention, smiles at me even when I totally misread his lead, tells me that it was a fab dance, gets my vote

The-G-Man is right about the fun aspect... No rhythm?... Lack of musicality?... I'm still gonna come back for more if you show me a good time

[Bungle]

There's a difference between a brute-force lead, and having a large amount of force intermittently present in the connection.

The former involves using force rather than effective leading to execute a move, this could result in injuries.

The latter uses force in a way that eliminates any slack so that the connection is tauter and more effective. In general, the moment of peak force occurs when you are at maximum separation from your partner, just before you start moving towards each other. A large amount of force may not be required, desirable, or possible once you have closed the separation and are engaged in the detail of whatever it is you are trying to do.

It's true, you *can* lead and follow with only very low levels of force, even when at maximum separation. I will always adapt to whatever level of feedback my partner is giving; however, my preference is for the slightly higher level of force that is often (but not always) found in the most experienced followers. The only downside I've encountered is that when it gets sweaty it's slightly easier to lose your partners hand when at maximum separation.

Some people, having read all of the above, may now be surprised to hear that the most frequent comments I get from women I've never danced with before is 'You have a very gentle lead' and 'You're very smooth'.

If anyone wants to better understand the use of force and connection, I recommend finding a competent Lindyhopper and asking them to teach you how to do a Swingout; although, it has to be said, there are unfortunately some Lindyhoppers who do not use enough force to get the 'elastic' sensation that a well-executed Swingout produces. The '10 pound' concept was developed to assist with moves such as the Swingout; I've danced this move with enough different dancers to know that it feels lifeless and flat when the force isn't there.

[Glenn]

Interesting reading, and from what i gather people some use similar tension in the connection most of the time and some vary.

I guess none of the leads can say which is correct, as it all comes down to what the follow says they like. One follow could prefer a heavy hand, and another light; now whose opinion is to say which is the better lead ?
I guess we just have benchmarks of where to start, and alter it to suit during the learning process.

I personally try to be a consistent lead with my signals, and without hesitancy. Like if you change your mind once starting a move it is very confusing for the follow ( guilty there occasionally).
Also generally i think the tension i use is quite light, but use the hand and fingers of the connecting hand, to help indicate whats coming up.
Like if going into a sway.. slightly twist her hand anti-clock, then slowly turn it clockwise in..and her arm starts to twist and follow..and before she knows it she's there.
On t'other hand if ur doing MJ to a rock n roll number you need a bit of power and speed in the tension.

So i guess it should be changed to different tunes, different follows...easy innit
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Does dancing five nites a week mean i'm addicted ?

[Southern Jiver]

<soapbox> Further on this topic about what makes a good dancer (I'm talking from a male perspective here), I've recently had cause to review my ideas about this. What is a "good" (male) dancer? There are some interesting thoughts on this thread but there's a whole other aspect to this question.

1. Is a "good" dancer someone who has all the fancy moves?
2. Is it someone who displays a host of more technical moves?
3. Is it someone who throws in a few aerials?
4. Is it someone who seduces their partner with sexy moves?
5. Is it someone who just gives their partners a platform to show off for themselves?
6. Is it someone who establishes a good rapport with their partner, whatever their skill level, and dances according to that level?
7. Is it someone who is always conscious of their surroundings and is mindful of where other dancers are so avoids taking their space or causing collisions?
8. Is it someone who is always courteous and ready to apologise if contact with other dancers does occur?
9. Is it someone who dances in a manner corresponding to the space available?
10. Is it someone who always makes dancing fun?

I personally think that some of those qualities are absolutely essential, especially the last 5 and without them, I wouldn't call the person a "good" dancer. Someone may have all the fanciest moves, the greatest aerials, the most proficient seducers and drops in their repertoire but if they ignore the last 5 , they become an "inconsiderate" dancer and at worst dangerous. Some people are technically very proficient but their desire to impress their partners (and maybe everyone else who they think is watching) means that they ignore other people on the dancefloor and dance as though they "own" it. When collisions inevitably occur, they do not even apologise for their actions. That is very bad manners and it doesn't matter how well they dance, it signifies that they are not a "good" dancer, to my mind. Likewise, using very long, open moves or aerials on a crowded dancefloor is selfish and dangerous. A "good" dancer will only dance moves that the conditions allow and if they can't use all their usual flamboyant, extravagant moves to impress their partner, then so be it. At least they wont ruin another dancers evening. To my mind, it doesn't take a huge amount to observe the last 5 points above, and they should be an essential ingredient for what makes a "good" dancer. </soapbox>
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"We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance."
~Japanese Proverb

[DJ Bry]

Yes SJ, your post has my vote!

A little of one to five, and a lot of six to ten!

you could term a new saying out of this, like,

'I'm a six to ten dancer' ('')

You or ladies could rate men by a group of numbers! Need some more though for all the bad faults!
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Freelance Teacher & DJ.
Dancers usually live longer, so go for it!

[Dizzybee]